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Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
 
Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 09:15, 9th November 2026
 
An update, from the BBC:

Families of Croydon tram crash victims say justice not been done


Tram 2551 was en route from New Addington to Wimbledon via East Croydon when it crashed

Ten years on from the fatal Croydon tram crash, the families of those who died say they believe they were failed by the justice system.

Tram 2551 came off the tracks on a sharp bend at 06:07 GMT on 9 November 2016. It was travelling at over 43mph (70km/h) - more than three times the recommended limit.

Sixty-nine passengers were on board at the time. Seven people died and 61 were injured.

The driver Alfred Dorris was cleared of health and safety offences following a trial, while Transport for London (TfL) and Tram Operations Limited (TOL) were fined a total of £14m for failing in their health and safety duties.

"It's a milestone at 10 years, but to us we live with it everyday. Justice was not served," says Jean Smith, whose son Mark died in the derailment.

Danielle Richardson, who lost her grandfather Phillip Logan, says: "I'm always going to feel bitter. I'm always going to feel that anger towards Transport for London."


Dorota Rynkiewicz, Dane Chinnery, Donald Collett, Mark Smith, Phil Seary, Philip Logan and Robert Huxley were killed in the derailment - Image © Met Police

The seven people who died were Dane Chinnery, 19, Philip Seary, 57, Dorota Rynkiewicz, 35, Robert Huxley, 63, and Philip Logan, 52, all from New Addington, and Donald Collett, 62, and Mark Smith, 35, both from Croydon.

Of the 61 injured, 19 were seriously hurt. Many sustained life-changing injuries, from chronic pain to amputations.

All of them were on their way to work.

(BBC article continues, in some detail)


I recommend a full read of that BBC news item - it contains a lot of detail about that sad incident.

CfN. 

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TonyK at 20:17, 22nd June 2023
 
We shall see who my 'Learned Friends' advise the victims to sue, but I suspect, if they do at all, it will be higher in the food chain than the driver.

Correct - the driver may not even have a job now, and is not worth pursuing. I would imagine an offer has already been made to the parties with justifiable claims by lawyers acting for the tram company or their insurers. Some may have been settled already, or received interim payments - I would hope so after almost 7 years.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Witham Bobby at 12:42, 22nd June 2023
 
The principle of vicarious liability means that employers are responsible for the negligence of their employees when the negligence occurs at work

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Phantom at 10:45, 22nd June 2023
 
We shall see who my 'Learned Friends' advise the victims to sue, but I suspect, if they do at all, it will be higher in the food chain than the driver.

He has lots of "get outs"
- Lack of training
- over worked

etc etc

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Oxonhutch at 22:45, 21st June 2023
 
We shall see who my 'Learned Friends' advise the victims to sue, but I suspect, if they do at all, it will be higher in the food chain than the driver.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by eightonedee at 17:44, 21st June 2023
 
Is this correct? I ask because the test of culpability is less in a civil case, isn't it? And the driver was negligent, he admitted same.

Yes - it's a balance of probabilities test for civil liability, beyond reasonable doubt test for criminal liability

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 13:20, 21st June 2023
 
I would be interested if the bereaved sued for compensation & brought in both Driver & TfL/Tram company on that statement.

What's the point in suing the driver, he is unlikely to have any wealth or assets to speak of so it would be vindictive also he has been proven innocent in a Criminal Court so in a civil court the prosecution would have to show the Criminal Court was wrong.

Is this correct? I ask because the test of culpability is less in a civil case, isn't it? And the driver was negligent, he admitted same.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Phantom at 11:51, 21st June 2023
 
I would be interested if the bereaved sued for compensation & brought in both Driver & TfL/Tram company on that statement.

What's the point in suing the driver, he is unlikely to have any wealth or assets to speak of so it would be vindictive also he has been proven innocent in a Criminal Court so in a civil court the prosecution would have to show the Criminal Court was wrong.

The wealth is with TfL (aka the Tax Payer) if there is, which is likely, compensation will more than probably be settled out of Court, once the Criminal case has finished, there is nothing further to prove, the only things are the amount of money and an apology from TfL.  To take the compensation to Court will incur costs and there is no guarantee the plaintives (victims) would get all of their cost covered above the amount of compensation.

The tram driver is now by virtue of the verdict a victim and is entitled to compensation from TfL for putting his health and safety at risk whilst at work.

Personally speaking it may help with closure as I am sure there will be a lot of bitterness with this outcome
The driver has to be accountable

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Electric train at 21:53, 20th June 2023
 
I would be interested if the bereaved sued for compensation & brought in both Driver & TfL/Tram company on that statement.

What's the point in suing the driver, he is unlikely to have any wealth or assets to speak of so it would be vindictive also he has been proven innocent in a Criminal Court so in a civil court the prosecution would have to show the Criminal Court was wrong.

The wealth is with TfL (aka the Tax Payer) if there is, which is likely, compensation will more than probably be settled out of Court, once the Criminal case has finished, there is nothing further to prove, the only things are the amount of money and an apology from TfL.  To take the compensation to Court will incur costs and there is no guarantee the plaintives (victims) would get all of their cost covered above the amount of compensation.

The tram driver is now by virtue of the verdict a victim and is entitled to compensation from TfL for putting his health and safety at risk whilst at work.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TaplowGreen at 21:03, 20th June 2023
 
I would be interested if the bereaved sued for compensation & brought in both Driver & TfL/Tram company on that statement.

That's a very good point.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 18:49, 20th June 2023
 
I would be interested if the bereaved sued for compensation & brought in both Driver & TfL/Tram company on that statement.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Electric train at 18:42, 20th June 2023
 
Reading the reports in the press, I am glad with the verdict such as was delivered. Too many systemic problems to heap guilt on to one man. I offer this opinion as an amateur (but professionally delivering) railwayman myself. I understand the frustrations and heartache of the bereaved and injured but they should be looking higher up the management structure (and safety culture as it was then) for the underlying reasons IMHO.

It is this part quoted on the BBC link
He told them: "I'm a human being and sometimes as a human being things happen to you that you are not in control of."
so he was negligent but not grossly negligent (Gross negligence is a heightened degree of negligence representing an extreme departure from the ordinary standard of care. Falling between intent to do wrongful harm and ordinary negligence, gross negligence is defined as willful, wanton, and reckless conduct affecting the life or property or another.)

It would be interesting to see the summing up and direction of the Judge to the Jury


Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Oxonhutch at 21:06, 19th June 2023
 
Reading the reports in the press, I am glad with the verdict such as was delivered. Too many systemic problems to heap guilt on to one man. I offer this opinion as an amateur (but professionally delivering) railwayman myself. I understand the frustrations and heartache of the bereaved and injured but they should be looking higher up the management structure (and safety culture as it was then) for the underlying reasons IMHO.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TaplowGreen at 18:39, 19th June 2023
 
A lot of questions still to be answered.

BBC News - Croydon tram crash: Driver not guilty over fatal derailment
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65949347

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Electric train at 18:15, 17th May 2023
 
From the BBC - court report

Passengers were "flung around" as if in a washing machine during a tram crash in Croydon that killed seven people, a court has heard.

Sixty-one passengers were also injured, 19 seriously, when the tram derailed in south London on 9 November 2016.

The Old Bailey heard passengers were flung about when the driver attempted a curve at more than three times the speed limit.

The trial is set to last for up to 5 weeks.


I am assuming the case is being prosecuted by the HSE and not the CPS.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by grahame at 15:25, 17th May 2023
 
From the BBC - court report

Passengers were "flung around" as if in a washing machine during a tram crash in Croydon that killed seven people, a court has heard.

Sixty-one passengers were also injured, 19 seriously, when the tram derailed in south London on 9 November 2016.

The Old Bailey heard passengers were flung about when the driver attempted a curve at more than three times the speed limit.

The trial is set to last for up to 5 weeks.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TonyK at 21:16, 26th March 2022
 
Proportionally the Tram Driver could end up with a more severe sentence than TfL as any fine impacts directly any public services, TOL part of the defence is the fact they have or are since the accident implementing fatigue management and monitoring.  The Tram Drive and I'm not saying his actions are not reprehensible, but he is going to live with the consequences of that morning on his mind for the rest of his life,   TfL and TOL will have corporate amnesia 

You can't lock a company up, and the people running it now may not be the same people who were running it then. Any fine will come out of the budget or be passed on in higher fares.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Electric train at 16:44, 26th March 2022
 
ORR have initiated prosecutions of the driver, Transport for London (TfL) and Tram Operations Limited (TOL) for breaches of health and safety law. From the BBC:
Mr Dorris, then aged 42, is accused of "an alleged failure as an employee to take reasonable care of passengers whilst employed at work driving the tram", the ORR said.

If found guilty, he could face a penalty of up to two years imprisonment and an unlimited fine. TfL and ToL could also face an unlimited financial penalty.


Proportionally the Tram Driver could end up with a more severe sentence than TfL as any fine impacts directly any public services, TOL part of the defence is the fact they have or are since the accident implementing fatigue management and monitoring.  The Tram Drive and I'm not saying his actions are not reprehensible, but he is going to live with the consequences of that morning on his mind for the rest of his life,   TfL and TOL will have corporate amnesia 

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TaplowGreen at 15:42, 26th March 2022
 
"Up to two years imprisonment" - seems a pretty light penalty for 7 lives lost? (if found guilty)

There's a lot that this statement. It is easy for those of us who spent a working life sat at a desk when the worse thing that a moment's inattention could cause is knocking your coffee over your keyboard to make a statement like this. This person did not set off to work intending to cause injury, and quite likely did not realise what danger had arisen immediately before the accident - although if he was (for example) playing with a mobile device instead of concentrating on his job, or under he influence of drink or drugs, that would be different.

Personally, I get more upset when a psychopath beats the living daylights out of some unfortunate who gets in their way when their blood is up gets away without a jail sentence. We sadly have a tabloid culture which whips up a revenge culture against those involved in accidents, when what we really need to do is to make sure as far as possible the risk of a recurrence is reduced or eliminated.  We would be a better society if grieving relatives were made to feel some consolation if this happens, rather than encourage a culture baying for revenge against someone whose "crime" might be just a few moments inattention when they were tired.

What we should be getting upset about is that in this modern and apparently safety pre-occupied world we ended up with a rail based mode of transport that could hurtle towards a bend this sharp at this speed.

  

I haven't spent my working life sitting at a desk, and in the construction/R & M industry we are sadly familiar with bad decision making, carelessness or inattention causing serious injury or death.

I didn't suggest at any point that there was any intent involved on the part of the tram driver, I very much doubt even those who drive recklessly intend to cause harm to others.  I was merely giving an observation on the maximum sentence he faces - Bignosemac has provided some useful clarification on that.


Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TonyK at 14:17, 26th March 2022
 
It's the ORR prosecuting, not the CPS.

You are absolutely correct, I've let retirement get to me.

It is still the same overall point, though, albeit for a different reason. ORR (and HSA and other statutory bodies with prosecution powers) can only start proceedings for offences that can be tried either summarily or "either way". More serious offences can only be tried on indictment, that is in a Crown Court, so ORR could not start a manslaughter case on their own, at least not without the agreement of the Attorney General or DPP, which is hypothetical in a case like this. CPS decided for whatever reason, which could include my offering, that they would not pursue the more serious charges available, and let ORR take over.


What we should be getting upset about is that in this modern and apparently safety pre-occupied world we ended up with a rail based mode of transport that could hurtle towards a bend this sharp at this speed.


It could well be that this view is shared by CPS and ORR, who have chosen a path that can better include corporate failings. We'll find out one day.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by eightonedee at 21:59, 25th March 2022
 
"Up to two years imprisonment" - seems a pretty light penalty for 7 lives lost? (if found guilty)

There's a lot that this statement. It is easy for those of us who spent a working life sat at a desk when the worse thing that a moment's inattention could cause is knocking your coffee over your keyboard to make a statement like this. This person did not set off to work intending to cause injury, and quite likely did not realise what danger had arisen immediately before the accident - although if he was (for example) playing with a mobile device instead of concentrating on his job, or under he influence of drink or drugs, that would be different.

Personally, I get more upset when a psychopath beats the living daylights out of some unfortunate who gets in their way when their blood is up gets away without a jail sentence. We sadly have a tabloid culture which whips up a revenge culture against those involved in accidents, when what we really need to do is to make sure as far as possible the risk of a recurrence is reduced or eliminated.  We would be a better society if grieving relatives were made to feel some consolation if this happens, rather than encourage a culture baying for revenge against someone whose "crime" might be just a few moments inattention when they were tired.

What we should be getting upset about is that in this modern and apparently safety pre-occupied world we ended up with a rail based mode of transport that could hurtle towards a bend this sharp at this speed.

  

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by JayMac at 21:14, 25th March 2022
 


"Up to two years imprisonment" - seems a pretty light penalty for 7 lives lost? (if found guilty)

More serious charges were largely precluded after the inquest  returned verdicts of accidental death for the seven victims. Relatives of the dead called that inquest an "expensive farce" after the coroner refused to allow witness statements from other passengers, from TfL, Tram Operations Ltd, other drivers, or the driver involved. He was deemed unfit to give evidence on medical grounds. The coroner relied almost solely on the RAIB report to direct the jury. An odd decision given that the RAIB doesn't apportion blame nor decide whether or not victims were unlawfully killed.

I sympathise with the relatives. The inquest did seem to be a rubber stamp exercise. A speeding driver, possibly asleep at the wheel. Poor risk management. No overspeed mitigation equipment. Unlawful killing at the very least.

The companies are also being prosecuted, which suggests that the CPS will argue that there were failings at corporate level, sufficient to clear the bar for  prosecution.

It's the ORR prosecuting, not the CPS.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TonyK at 16:24, 25th March 2022
 

"Up to two years imprisonment" - seems a pretty light penalty for 7 lives lost? (if found guilty)

Had the charge been manslaughter (or even murder), then the maximum penalty is life imprisonment. For reasons I haven't read anywhere, neither of those two offences seems to have been committed (according to the CPS), so two years max it is, if convicted.

I am not entering into speculation here, just considering one possible reason. The companies are also being prosecuted, which suggests that the CPS will argue that there were failings at corporate level, sufficient to clear the bar for  prosecution. A charge of manslaughter could be argued by them as showing that the driver was solely to blame, so precluding corporate charges. There may well be other reasons, but I'm not even a qualified barrack-room lawyer, so will wait to hear them.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TaplowGreen at 07:46, 25th March 2022
 
ORR have initiated prosecutions of the driver, Transport for London (TfL) and Tram Operations Limited (TOL) for breaches of health and safety law. From the BBC:
Mr Dorris, then aged 42, is accused of "an alleged failure as an employee to take reasonable care of passengers whilst employed at work driving the tram", the ORR said.

If found guilty, he could face a penalty of up to two years imprisonment and an unlimited fine. TfL and ToL could also face an unlimited financial penalty.


"Up to two years imprisonment" - seems a pretty light penalty for 7 lives lost? (if found guilty)

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TonyK at 21:40, 24th March 2022
 
ORR have initiated prosecutions of the driver, Transport for London (TfL) and Tram Operations Limited (TOL) for breaches of health and safety law. From the BBC:
Mr Dorris, then aged 42, is accused of "an alleged failure as an employee to take reasonable care of passengers whilst employed at work driving the tram", the ORR said.

If found guilty, he could face a penalty of up to two years imprisonment and an unlimited fine. TfL and ToL could also face an unlimited financial penalty.


More than five years after the event. That seems a very long time, given that the CPS ruled out manslaughter charges more than 2 years ago, but this will have been a very complex investigation.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by stuving at 15:53, 24th March 2022
 
ORR have initiated prosecutions of the driver, Transport for London (TfL) and Tram Operations Limited (TOL) for breaches of health and safety law. From the BBC:
Mr Dorris, then aged 42, is accused of "an alleged failure as an employee to take reasonable care of passengers whilst employed at work driving the tram", the ORR said.

If found guilty, he could face a penalty of up to two years imprisonment and an unlimited fine. TfL and ToL could also face an unlimited financial penalty.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by grahame at 21:01, 19th May 2021
 
From the BBC ... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57164860 ... feels incredibly late ...

The driver of a tram that crashed in Croydon, killing seven people, could have been "disorientated" following a micro-sleep, an inquest jury has heard.

Simon French, of the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB), said there was evidence the driver thought he was travelling in the opposite direction.

Mr French earlier described the event of November 2016 as "fast and violent".

It was "absolutely clear within hours" the crash was caused by excessive speed, he added.

He told the inquest if there had been a micro-sleep, "it is quite possible that the driver was fatigued", which could be a result of "cumulative sleep deprivation and insufficient sleep the previous night".

He also showed the hearing a video reconstruction of the crash.

The film, of a tram emerging from a tunnel at 78km/h (48mph) before slowing down to 73km/h (45mph), was shown first in slow motion and then at full speed.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by JayMac at 13:27, 31st October 2019
 
The Crown Prosecution Service have today announced that the driver of the tram that overturned will not face prosecution.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-50212531

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Bmblbzzz at 00:22, 5th January 2018
 
There's been a tram accident in Poznan, Poland, today, in which the driver is also thought to have "fallen asleep or fainted" before the tram derailed on a bend. He was sober and had been driving for 15 years without incident. Only the driver was injured, despite a couple of cars and a shop being damaged. http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/56,114883,22859075,tramwaj-wypadl-z-torow-sunal-jezdnia-i-chodnikiem-na-koniec.html

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ellendune at 07:57, 8th December 2017
 
Judging by the news reports tonight it was an accident waiting to happen with numerous other incidences of speeding on that stretch....ultimately if you don't feel you're safe to drive any vehicle whether through fatigue,illness or whatever it's up to you to say so and stay out of the driving seat.

But if that is to happen, then the employer needs to create an atmosphere where staff feel able to report this without fear for their jobs.  This clalrly comes over from the recommendations.

- improvements to safety management systems, particularly encouraging a culture in which everyone feels able to report their own mistakes

- improvements to the tram operator’s safety management arrangements so as to encourage staff to report their own mistakes and other safety issues

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TaplowGreen at 18:37, 7th December 2017
 
Judging by the news reports tonight it was an accident waiting to happen with numerous other incidences of speeding on that stretch....ultimately if you don't feel you're safe to drive any vehicle whether through fatigue,illness or whatever it's up to you to say so and stay out of the driving seat.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by JayMac at 15:21, 7th December 2017
 
The Rail Accident Investigation Branch has released its report into this incident.

Summary

On the morning of 9 November 2016, tram 2551 reached the maximum permitted speed of 80 km/h as it entered the first of three closely spaced tunnels, which together extended for about 500 metres. When leaving the tunnels, the tram should have been reducing speed significantly as it was approaching the sharp curve round to Sandilands junction, where there is a 20 km/h limit. This was marked by a speed limit sign at the start of the curve. On the day of the accident, the tram was travelling at 73 kilometres per hour when it reached this sign.

The excessive speed caused the tram to overturn as it passed through the curve. Passengers were thrown around inside the tram and the tram slid along the ground on its side. Of the 69 passengers involved in this tragic accident, seven died and 61 were injured, 19 seriously.

Investigation methods included:

- obtaining data from the tram’s on board recorder and the tramway’s signalling system

- conducting tests on the tram’s safety systems using computer modelling to understand the minimum speed that would overturn a tram on the curve at Sandilands

- reviewing the design of the infrastructure reviewing the tramway’s safety and risk management systems

- interviews with people and organisations involved

- surveying tram drivers to understand how trams were being driven on that route

The RAIB’s investigation concluded that it is probable that the driver temporarily lost awareness on a section of route on which his workload was low. The investigation has found that a possible explanation for this loss of awareness was that the driver had a microsleep, and that this was linked to fatigue. Although it is possible that the driver was fatigued due to insufficient sleep there is no evidence that this was the result of the shift pattern that he was required to work.

It is also possible that, as he regained awareness, the driver became confused about his location and direction of travel through the tunnels. The infrastructure did not contain sufficiently distinctive features to alert tram drivers that they were approaching the tight curve.

The investigation found that:

- there was no mechanism to monitor driver alertness or to automatically apply the brakes when the tram was travelling too fast

- there was inadequate signage to remind drivers when to start braking or to warn that they were approaching the sharp curve

- the windows broke when people fell against them, so many passengers were thrown from the tram causing fatal or serious injuries

Recommendations

The RAIB has made 15 recommendations intended to improve safety. Recommendation areas include:

- technology, such as automatic braking and systems to monitor driver alertness

- better understanding the risks associated with tramway operations, particularly when the tramway is not on a road, and the production of guidance on how these risks should be managed

- improving the strength of doors and windows

- improvements to safety management systems, particularly encouraging a culture in which everyone feels able to report their own mistakes

- improvements to the tram operator’s safety management arrangements so as to encourage staff to report their own mistakes and other safety issues

- reviewing how tramways are regulated a dedicated safety body for UK tramways
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-182017-overturning-of-a-tram-at-sandilands-junction-croydon (.pdf of the full 175 page report can be found via that link).

In media reports there has been a statement from Tim O'Toole, Chief executive of FirstGroup, whose subsidiary, Tram Operations Limited (TOL), runs the London Trams concession on behalf of Transport for London. It starts:

The RAIB concluded that management of fatigue was not a factor in the incident, nor did a speeding culture contribute to it.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/07/croydon-tram-crash-caused-by-driver-falling-asleep-and-speeding

To start a statement by focusing on a couple of points where the operator wasn't at fault is, frankly, disgusting. It's clear from the report, and from union statements, that the management of staff at TOL is woeful. Mr O'Toole would have done better to acknowledge the victims first rather than begin with corporate arse covering. 

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Bmblbzzz at 12:30, 11th November 2017
 
They might do better to use the tiredness the device uncovers to force the operators to confront those issues. It might be better for all of us, in fact.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Tim at 17:39, 10th November 2017
 
Either these devices are safe and effective or they are not.  But they have been used by truck drivers for a long time without reported ill effects.  I can't see that an intra-red beam shining at your face would do you any harm.  Especially as the beam is invisible and at lower intensity than the IR radiation you would get on your skin from the sun. 

I suspect that the Union objects because they see this as a way of mitigating the dangers from drivers falling asleep without implementing the changes which would result in fewer tired drivers (such as shorter hours, better shift management, more drivers).  If this technology can be got out of the cabs on spurious safety grounds then the operator would have to address the route cause of tiredness.     

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by broadgage at 16:40, 10th November 2017
 
A cynic might suspect that the trade union are opposed on principle to a device that ensures that their members are awake. They would not of course put it like that, hence the threatened strike over "safety"

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by JayMac at 12:19, 10th November 2017
 
Driver fatigue detection systems have been well studied and proven to work. They are already in use in commercial vehicles and on public transport systems across the world. What hasn't been proven is any ill-effect on the person being monitored.

I can't understand why the unions are against such an improvement in safety.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 09:38, 10th November 2017
 
What I don't think has yet been reported here is that TfL has fitted infra-red sensors that are aimed at drivers faces to monitor eye movement, setting off an alarm should there be no eye movement for a set period, ie should they close their eyes for any period.

Strikes are threatened as the union says they're effecting drivers health & well-being. TfL has agreed to get independent advice & a first strike for next Monday has been called off in return, but a further one later is still on the cards.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 23:48, 9th November 2017
 
An update, from the BBC:

Croydon tram crash: Two memorials unveiled


A stone plinth and a new communal area have been built in the centre of New Addington

Two memorials honouring the victims of the Croydon tram derailment have been unveiled on the first anniversary of the tragedy.

Seven people died when the commuter tram overturned on 9 November 2016.

A stone plinth has been erected near the crash site at Sandilands Junction, and a new communal area built in New Addington.

Families of the victims attended a memorial service, along with Mayor of London Sadiq Khan, on Thursday.

Taiye Ajbiola, who was on the tram when it derailed, said the anniversary brought back painful memories. "Two or three days before today I've been having a lot of flashbacks. This morning it was like I was on the tram again," he added.


Relatives of the victims laid flowers during the memorial service

Speaking at the service, Mr Khan said: "Our public transport system should be a place where people are always safe. We owe this to the victims, the families and to all Londoners."

Tony Newman, leader of the council, said the ceremony "gives all those affected a chance to think back. Although a year has passed since the incident we still mourn those who died on that dreadful day."

The seven people killed in the crash were Dane Chinnery, 19, Philip Logan, 52, Philip Seary, 57, Dorota Rynkiewicz, 35, and Robert Huxley, 63, all from New Addington, and Mark Smith, 35 and Donald Collett, 62, both from Croydon.


Seven people died and 50 were injured when a tram derailed in Croydon

The tram had been travelling at 44mph in a 13mph zone when it derailed near the Sandilands Junction area of Croydon, an interim report found.

An full investigation is under way into the causes of the tram derailment.

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) said its final report is "nearing completion" and is expected to be published by the end of the year.



Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by stuving at 22:13, 4th August 2017
 
The RAIB have made public a list of their recommendations, ahead of their final report, but after they have been sent to those who will have to react to them. That list, from a longer posting, is:
Key recommendation areas addressed to UK tram operators, are likely to be:
  • provision of active tram protection to prevent serious accidents due to excessive speed at high risk locations
  • research into active means of detecting the attention state of drivers and intervening in the event of inattention
  • improved containment of passengers by tram windows and doors
  • setting up of an industry body to facilitate more effective cooperation between UK tramway owners and operators on matters related to safety performance and the development of common standards

In addition, the RAIB’s investigation into how Tram Operations Ltd manage fatigue risk may result in a recommendation.

Our final report will also highlight the importance of ensuring the availability of in-tram CCTV systems and any actions already taken to address the issue. If necessary, the RAIB will also make a recommendation for further improvement in this area.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by IndustryInsider at 11:43, 21st May 2017
 
How do the regulations re: shift lengths, rest periods etc differ in this case from rail services? (Or indeed lorry drivers on the tachograph etc?) I thought these minimum conditions were non negotiable & covered by legislation?

An interesting question.  However, some are questioning the accident rate on HGVs, particularly at night. The law is the minimum, that dos not mean it is adequate. Also laws are often a blunt instrument in such matters. 

Yes, as ellendune says, the law is the minimum.  I don't have access to their shift patterns but I have no doubt that tram drivers on Croydon Tramlink will be driving a lot closer to those limits than the average main line driver who works for an established TOC as they are likely to have negotiated conditions that are more stringent - for example LTV drivers can't be rostered to work shifts that are longer than 9 hours in length that commence before 5am.  There are likely to be many other similar issues that increase the chances of fatigue such as repetition of routes.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ellendune at 21:35, 20th May 2017
 
How do the regulations re: shift lengths, rest periods etc differ in this case from rail services? (Or indeed lorry drivers on the tachograph etc?) I thought these minimum conditions were non negotiable & covered by legislation?

An interesting question.  However, some are questioning the accident rate on Heavy Goods Vehicle's (HGV)s, particularly at night. The law is the minimum, that dos not mean it is adequate. Also laws are often a blunt instrument in such matters. 

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying acronym

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TaplowGreen at 20:07, 20th May 2017
 
They have:

http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/trade-union-voice-concerns-about-tram-drivers-shift-patterns-and-rosters/story-29929764-detail/story.html

Trouble is that as a 'new' operation hard earned conditions earned over many generations in the case of national rail services (such as shift lengths, consecutive days worked, and so on), are harder to negotiate above and beyond what is the legal minimum.

I've no doubt that without unions, your average train driver would be exposed to far more risk from such things as well.  I'm not a fan of much of what the union does, but that's one area where they are very important.

How do the regulations re: shift lengths, rest periods etc differ in this case from rail services? (Or indeed lorry drivers on the tachograph etc?) I thought these minimum conditions were non negotiable & covered by legislation?

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 19:31, 20th May 2017
 
Thank you for that measured, and thus very useful, comment here on the Coffee Shop forum, IndustryInsider. 


Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by IndustryInsider at 18:16, 20th May 2017
 
They have:

http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/trade-union-voice-concerns-about-tram-drivers-shift-patterns-and-rosters/story-29929764-detail/story.html

Trouble is that as a 'new' operation hard earned conditions earned over many generations in the case of national rail services (such as shift lengths, consecutive days worked, and so on), are harder to negotiate above and beyond what is the legal minimum.

I've no doubt that without unions, your average train driver would be exposed to far more risk from such things as well.  I'm not a fan of much of what the union does, but that's one area where they are very important.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TaplowGreen at 15:35, 20th May 2017
 
Scarcely believable and incredibly worrying  - is "ability to stay awake at work" not part of First Groups recruitment process?

Or are the shift patterns of a nature that means that staff do not get adequate sleep, as some have alleged.



If that's the case, maybe it'd be a worthwhile issue for the Trade Unions to take up.....I'm surprised they haven't already?

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by GBM at 05:54, 20th May 2017
 
Scarcely believable and incredibly worrying  - is "ability to stay awake at work" not part of First Groups recruitment process?

Or are the shift patterns of a nature that means that staff do not get adequate sleep, as some have alleged.


Certainly in the bus world, the shifts are horrible.  Half to two thirds of new entrants leave not being able to take the relentless pace of them and that goes with the lack of family time.  Further years progression ease up the pace (but that takes quite a while).
Very long discussions to be had on that issue alone.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ellendune at 22:09, 19th May 2017
 
Scarcely believable and incredibly worrying  - is "ability to stay awake at work" not part of First Groups recruitment process?

Or are the shift patterns of a nature that means that staff do not get adequate sleep, as some have alleged.


Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TaplowGreen at 20:38, 19th May 2017
 
Hi All,

It just dose not get any better!

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/shocking-footage-emerges-of-croydon-tram-driver-asleep-at-controls-a3542661.html

Basset

Scarcely believable and incredibly worrying  - is "ability to stay awake at work" not part of First Groups recruitment process?

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by basset44 at 14:15, 19th May 2017
 
Hi All,

It just dose not get any better!

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/shocking-footage-emerges-of-croydon-tram-driver-asleep-at-controls-a3542661.html

Basset

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 19:02, 24th April 2017
 
So overtaking is a no-no on a crowded motorway for yours, then? How often do you find it reacts wrongly?

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by LiskeardRich at 18:27, 24th April 2017
 
I'm surprised no one has mentioned 'driverless' trams -

The DLR seems to manage....

Yes, but, the DLR has no level crossings to entertain (other than just the one I believe, at Beckton Depot whereby the road only has access to the depot so not a major thoroughfare), Croydon has numerous level crossings and spaces whereby people walk across the track, East Croydon station for one. All it takes is for one broken down car or one fallen over old lady and its not worth thinking about, a computer wont notice these things, a driver on the other hand will do.

I recently saw a dashcam video from inside a Tesla which correctly predicted (you hear the warning tone before anything visible happens, quite spooky) a car spinning and overturning on a motorway directly infront. The Tesla managed to stop itself quickly enough to avoid any further collisions with debris or the crashed car. A computer can avoid unexpected collisions/obstructions given the right sensory inputs and algorithms and will likely respond quicker and more effectively than any human controller.

ChrisB - yes, that was indeed why I put driverless in quotation marks to infer a system such as what we see currently on several tube lines, but in my opinion having that human being there is frankly overkill with how technology has come along in the last few years.

My Zafira has an automated collision avoidance system. A car stopped suddenly in front of me and it reacted quicker than I did. The problem with the system - I live down a narrow lane, with hedge growing across the road and it brakes to the hedge getting close as well,

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by chrisr_75 at 12:36, 24th April 2017
 
1.5lb of pressure doesn't sound very much. Is it possible that a sleeping driver with their hand on the lever would prevent the deadman's handle activating, without it actually being faulty? I know someone who was involved in a near head-on crash with a car driver who had fallen asleep and whose sleeping foot was exerting enough pressure on the accelerator pedal for the car to carry on at about 40mph uphill, so such things do happen.

I was surprised about the pressure required. I'm quite certain my arm (and I'm far from being heavily built) weighs somewhat in excess of 1.5lb...unless of course there is some mis-quoting/-understanding going on in terms of units or something, that wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Bmblbzzz at 12:24, 24th April 2017
 
1.5lb of pressure doesn't sound very much. Is it possible that a sleeping driver with their hand on the lever would prevent the deadman's handle activating, without it actually being faulty? I know someone who was involved in a near head-on crash with a car driver who had fallen asleep and whose sleeping foot was exerting enough pressure on the accelerator pedal for the car to carry on at about 40mph uphill, so such things do happen.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 10:08, 24th April 2017
 
From the BBC

Croydon tram crash: Drivers 'fell asleep' on fatal line

Four drivers have admitted falling asleep while operating trams in Croydon, where seven people were killed after a tram derailed in November 2016.

Drivers said a safety device, known as "a dead man's handle", failed to activate and stop their trams.

Tram Operations Ltd, which runs the line, said driver fatigue was monitored and controls were "fully functional".

An interim report into November's crash suggested the tram was speeding and the driver may have "lost awareness".

It found there was no emergency braking and the tram had been travelling at 46mph before it crashed in a 13mph zone, near the Sandilands Junction area of Croydon.

However, a BBC investigation for the Victoria Derbyshire programme, has found that at least three trams have been recorded speeding on that same line since the derailment.

One was travelling at 40mph in a 25mph zone. Another is understood to have been speeding near the crash site.

'Very fortunate'

Four current and former drivers have also admitted they have fallen asleep while driving a tram.

Konrad Turner, who retired last year after driving trams in Croydon for 16 years, said he woke up 10 metres after passing the line's George Street stop, adding: "A person was very fortunate that I didn't run them over."

Mr Turner said his tram's driver safety device - which is used on different types of tram across the UK and Europe - failed to work.

Drivers have to apply 1.5lb of pressure on a lever and push it forward for the tram to accelerate.

If pressure is not maintained, a safety device inside the lever should activate - sounding an alarm and then applying an emergency brake.

There is no suggestion a problem with this device was responsible for the derailment at Sandilands.

Cost their jobs

Guidance from the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) safety regulator says the driver safety device should activate "in the event of driver collapse".

Further guidance also states the device should be designed "so that it cannot be kept in the operating position other than by a vigilant tram driver".

But six drivers said the device was not "fit for purpose".

One said drivers were afraid to tell management about safety device failures because they feared being sacked over falling asleep.

"You're asking somebody to come forward and admit to something that could cost them their job," he said, adding that he believed most drivers had fallen asleep at some point in the career.
The BBC has uncovered three incidents in the past decade where drivers were incapacitated.

They include a near head-on collision, a collision with buffers, and a driver failing to slow down at the line's Morden Road stop.

On that occasion, the driver was only woken when he was spotted by ticket inspectors on the platform, who radioed his cab.

In November, footage released by the Sun showed a driver who appeared to be asleep for at least 30 seconds continuing to power a tram on the line.

Transport for London told the BBC the driver safety device failed to work because the driver had not completely lost consciousness.

"If he were to completely pass out and lose consciousness then he would relax his grip," director Leon Daniels said when shown the footage.
Another driver told the BBC of a dead man's handle failure in May 2016.

He said a spring in the device had broken, causing the alarm and emergency braking to be initially delayed, before failing altogether.

The driver told the BBC he reported it immediately. He said he was told it was safe to continue.

"[I said] if I have a heart attack or become unconscious this tram will go through the buffers at Beckenham junction at 50mph and kill more than likely myself, the majority of people on board and around the tram.

"Only when I said that [did they say], 'Take it out of service straightaway.'"

In a statement, Tram Operations Ltd, said there was not "a full failure" of the driver's safety device and passengers "were not at risk".

'Operating safely'

It says the tram was later "examined" and the fault was rectified the next day.

Transport for London said the "tram was still operating safely".

The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) safety regulator said it was not made aware of the incident, but a "failure should be reported".

When questioned on allegations of trams exceeding speed limits in Croydon, Tram Operations said it had increased speed checks across the tram network since the crash.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by chrisr_75 at 10:40, 15th March 2017
 
I'm surprised no one has mentioned 'driverless' trams -

The DLR seems to manage....

Yes, but, the DLR has no level crossings to entertain (other than just the one I believe, at Beckton Depot whereby the road only has access to the depot so not a major thoroughfare), Croydon has numerous level crossings and spaces whereby people walk across the track, East Croydon station for one. All it takes is for one broken down car or one fallen over old lady and its not worth thinking about, a computer wont notice these things, a driver on the other hand will do.

I recently saw a dashcam video from inside a Tesla which correctly predicted (you hear the warning tone before anything visible happens, quite spooky) a car spinning and overturning on a motorway directly infront. The Tesla managed to stop itself quickly enough to avoid any further collisions with debris or the crashed car. A computer can avoid unexpected collisions/obstructions given the right sensory inputs and algorithms and will likely respond quicker and more effectively than any human controller.

ChrisB - yes, that was indeed why I put driverless in quotation marks to infer a system such as what we see currently on several tube lines, but in my opinion having that human being there is frankly overkill with how technology has come along in the last few years.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 09:56, 15th March 2017
 
I think that's why 'driverless' was in quotes?

Similar to the DLR, a member of staff could pilot it through the street running, where speed limits are necessarily slow, in order that they can stop easily. Leaving the computer to drive in the 'country' lengths.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Adelante_CCT at 09:53, 15th March 2017
 
I'm surprised no one has mentioned 'driverless' trams -

The DLR seems to manage....

Yes, but, the DLR has no level crossings to entertain (other than just the one I believe, at Beckton Depot whereby the road only has access to the depot so not a major thoroughfare), Croydon has numerous level crossings and spaces whereby people walk across the track, East Croydon station for one. All it takes is for one broken down car or one fallen over old lady and its not worth thinking about, a computer wont notice these things, a driver on the other hand will do.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by chrisr_75 at 09:33, 15th March 2017
 
The DLR seems to manage....

Exactly. Strikes me as a clear situation where some technology or other could have completely prevented this incident. It's not like we're dealing with an antiquated system either.

London Underground has had speed controlled signals (with tripcocks) on manually driven lines for a long, long time. Tesla cars also mostly manage not to crash - the only incidents I'm aware of involving a 'driverless' car would've been stopped by it being on rails! Time to remove control from humans if they cannot be trusted to follow simple instructions (this wasn't the first overspeed incident on this tram system was it?).

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 09:13, 15th March 2017
 
The DLR seems to manage....

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by chrisr_75 at 22:41, 14th March 2017
 
That, or a more modern system that does exactly the same like TPWS.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned 'driverless' trams - i reckon the technology must be pretty much sorted for vehicles on rails when you look at how far cars & lorries have come in the past few years. 'Driver', for want of a better title, present to monitor doors/anything emergency related, computer does the rest.

Come to think of it, we have GPS based systems that know where a bus is to the nearest < minute, so quite why a GPS speed control device couldn't be fitted to the trams I do not know - there's not really any excuse for even allowing over speed events to take place in the first place given the technology available.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by IndustryInsider at 20:37, 14th March 2017
 
That, or a more modern system that does exactly the same like TPWS.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by broadgage at 19:58, 14th March 2017
 
In view of the relatively modest speeds involved on this tramway, but also the dire consequences of grossly exceeding the permitted speed something clearly needs to be done.

Could not something similar to the tripcock system as used on London underground be applied ? A fairly simple and robust device to measure the speed at say 200M before the 12.5MPH limit, that raises a mechanical lever  near the track if the speed is dangerously high. This lever operates an air cock or an electrical switch on the tram that applies the brakes.
Requires coming to a complete stand and leaving the cab to reset it. The act of having to leave the cab and reset something externally also has the secondary result of ensuring that the driver is at somewhat alert and in reasonable health.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 16:39, 20th February 2017
 
So you mean TfL as equipment supplier, rather than First, the operator?

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Tim at 16:33, 20th February 2017
 
Indeed, the driver had driven that route many times before, successfully. He knew where to brake.

quite.  It isn't like it is a huge network. I am sure that the driver knew what to do, but a few seconds of concentration lapse would be all it would take to forget to brake in time and a system that allows that is not safe enough.  I'd be interested to know what steps had been taken to ensure that drivers always did brake in time.  It will look bad for the operator if the safety of the system depends on a driver performing well every single time if there was no monitoring to make sure that they did in fact perform well every single time.     

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 15:21, 20th February 2017
 
Indeed, the driver had driven that route many times before, successfully. He knew where to brake.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by stuving at 15:10, 20th February 2017
 
The RAIB has published a second interim report in to this accident.

The new information is mainly about when the speed limit sign is visible to the driver, relative to the point at which braking has to start:
31 A tram approaching the Sandilands Junction area from Lloyd Park at 80 km/h (50 mph) would need to brake at its full service rate of 1.3 m/s2 approximately 180 metres before the speed restriction sign, in order to be travelling at 20 km/h (13 mph) when the sign was reached.
32 RAIB observations and measurements indicate that tram drivers approaching Sandilands Junction from the direction of the tunnel during the hours of darkness, in clear conditions, can sight the curve and read the speed restriction sign from around 90 metres with headlights on main beam, and from around 60 metres with dipped beam.
33 The point at which the curve can be sighted and the sign becomes readable in clear conditions is therefore about 90 - 120 metres beyond the point at which a full service brake application must start in order to reduce speed from 80 km/h to 20 km/h (full service brake deceleration is around half emergency brake deceleration).  At the time of the accident the readability of the speed restriction sign is likely to have been adversely affected by heavy rain.
34 There was no sign to indicate to drivers where they should begin to apply the brake for the Sandilands curve; they were expected to know this from their knowledge of the route.

The concern is, of course, that too much reliance is being placed on the driver's route knowledge of where braking should start. All tram operators have already been advised to take measures such as stepped speed reductions and extra signage.




Edit note: Link corrected. CfN.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 00:50, 23rd November 2016
 
A rather sombre update, from the Croydon Advertiser:

Four tram crash survivors still recovering in hospital, 'some with amputations' according to police

There are still four survivors of the Croydon tram crash who are recovering in hospital with serious injuries, some with amputations according to the detective in charge of the criminal investigation into the tragedy which killed seven people.

Senior investigating officer Detective Superintendent Gary Richardson spoke to the Croydon Advertiser today about the investigation and explained that early indications from the pathologist who carried out the postmortems on the victims, shows that they were killed instantly.

DS Richardson's boss Assistant Chief Constable Robin Smith also admitted that at one point on the day of the crash he feared that the death toll could have been as high as ten.

ACC Smith revealed that 70 police officers who responded to the derailment are being offered specialist treatment by the British Transport Police due to the risk of them suffering post-traumatic stress disorder.

The two senior police officers gave an insight today as to what it was like for the emergency services who responded to the tram crash.

ACC Smith was made aware of the derailment about an hour after the tram came off the tracks. After he knew the scale of the incident, he immediately went to the scene.

He said: "If there is a train crash that is one of the main reasons we are here, it is our bread and butter. I walked into the office at 7.15am, one of the guys said to me 'have you heard?' And I thought he was going to say Donald Trump is going to be the new president, and he said 'no there's been a tram crash'. And this is a guy who when I first joined the force two months ago said 'we never have train crashes'."

When he arrived at the scene a police cordon had already been put in place along Addiscombe Road and the emergency service operation was well under way.

Survivors who were freed from the overturned tram were being escorted onto another stationary tram at Sandilands tram stop where they were assessed for their injuries, before being put on one of two buses which would go to hospitals in Croydon or Tooting.

When asked if the work of the emergency services had prevented any of the injured from dying, DS Richardson, who also attended the scene, said: "It is hard to say that anybody saved a life. I think from the pathologist that conducted the post-mortems, Rob Chapman, the view was that those people who died from the fatalities in affect died almost immediately, so that has been some comfort for the families that [their loved ones] didn't have survivable injuries. There is nobody now in hospital that has injuries that they will die from. There are still four people in hospital, a couple of those will be in there for a few weeks because they are amputees."

As the scale of the incident began to become clear ACC Smith addressed the media, initially confirming that five people had died.

He said: "We knew that seven people had died by late afternoon. At lunchtime we said it was five [and feared it was] up to potentially ten. Later on we were talking seven, potentially eight. And it came down to seven when we confirmed [the number of victims]. It is quite tricky because everyone [immediately] wants us to be definitive. Sometimes it is not as easy as you expect. So it is easier to say certainly five [have died] maybe seven, in fact I briefed the mayor to say that it was certainly five but it could be seven or it could be eight, but I think we knew by late afternoon."

The nature of the injuries made formal identification difficult for the officers who could not easily establish how many bodies there were.

ACC Smith explained that while his officers go through regular training for incidents like this, nothing compares to the real thing - but he felt the BTP, along with the other emergency services, did a good job.

He added: "One thing you can never train for is just the human aspect, we all see difficult and challenging scenes. I've done incident training where you have actors and it is very realistic but, of course, you know they are actors. Our staff had to deal with quite difficult scenes and we are all human. I guess [this was] one thing you can never train for.

"BTP deals with a lot of tragedy so our staff are pretty experienced but I don't think it makes it any easier. We need to consider their welfare, because it was a very, very challenging scene as you can imagine. It used to be you go home, have a thoughtful moment to yourself and acted super strong, now we recognise post-traumatic stress disorder."

ACC Smith said that 70 officers who attended the scene were being offered support. He said: "As organisations have become more sophisticated and realised [tragedies such as this] can have lasting effects, well lets provide that care to our staff. Fourteen family liaison officers have been deployed to [the] seven families [of the victims]. Those families are incredibly distressed and that distress can transfer over to the officers, so they are also part of that process to make sure it isn't having an adverse effect on them."

A number of residents who lived within the police cordon and near the crash site wanted to help the emergency services in any way they could on the day of the incident.

"It was bitterly cold," ACC Smith said. "It was that 'in your body bones cold'. But that comes with the job, and what also comes with that is the members of the community who come out with ham sandwiches and cups of tea. The local nursery gave us access to their facilities. Communities come together which is quite important."


Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 09:26, 20th November 2016
 
There was comment somewhere (might be upthread) that the drivers shift pattern wasn't in a regular pattern & wasn't conducive to getting a good (night's) sleep. May be something in that.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by JayMac at 22:14, 19th November 2016
 
Lots of questions headed FirstGroup's way...

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 17:28, 19th November 2016
 
An update, from the BBC:

Tram driver suspended over Sun footage

A tram driver has been suspended after footage in The Sun appeared to show him falling asleep, transport company FirstGroup has said.

The footage suggested he may have nodded off at the controls on the same line in which a crash killed seven people in Croydon on 9 November.

The Sun said it was recorded in April, about three miles from the south London derailment which also injured 51.

FirstGroup said the driver was removed from duty pending an investigation.

A spokesman for the company said: "We have not seen this video before (we saw the footage for the first time when the Sun sent it last night) and it will now be subject to a full investigation.  If the situation is as it appears, then this is completely unacceptable and appropriate action will be taken."

In a 30-second clip the driver - who is not the same one involved in last week's fatal crash - appears to drift in and out of sleep as the tram moves forward.

He is seen apparently struggling to remain upright as passengers are heard expressing shock as the tram approaches the next stop.

Mayor of London Sadiq Khan said he was "extremely concerned" by the footage.

The BBC has not been able to verify the footage, but Transport for London said it was also carrying out urgent inquiries.

A spokesman said it had asked operators FirstGroup to take all necessary action and report back as soon as possible.



Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TaplowGreen at 06:46, 19th November 2016
 
From BBC news;   

Croydon trams: 'Sleeping' driver footage probed - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38036567

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by IndustryInsider at 15:08, 16th November 2016
 
There was this one from Tim O'Toole:

http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2016/10-11-16.aspx

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by JayMac at 15:05, 16th November 2016
 
Have there been any public statements or condolences from FirstGroup?

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 14:42, 16th November 2016
 
The BBC's take on this report

The tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at three and a half times the speed limit, investigators have said.

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) said the tram, which was carrying about 60 people, was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone.

In its interim report, it said there was no evidence of any track defects, or obstructions on the track.

The investigation also found no malfunction of the braking system.

The tram derailed last Wednesday morning shortly after coming out of a tunnel which has a faster speed limit.

'Rigorous assurance process'

Initial analysis shows the driver did apply the brake after coming out of the tunnel but only enough to reduce his speed from 50mph out of the tunnel to 43.5mph.

The tram travelled 25m before stopping.

The RAIB said the factors that led to the speeding were still under investigation and so it advises London Trams and Tram Operations Ltd to put speed restrictions in place before the bend out of the tunnel.

Mike Brown, London's transport commissioner, said: "We will follow the RAIB's advice and, before service is resumed, will implement additional temporary speed restrictions and associated signage near Sandilands to supplement existing safety arrangements.

"We are continuing to carry out a thorough safety assessment and are taking the advice of an independent panel of tram experts.

"We will only resume services for the local community once that rigorous assurance process has been completed."

From a further page linked to this one & not yet reported here

Transport for London (TfL) has offered to pay for the funerals of the seven victims of the Croydon tram crash.

TfL has pledged to do "everything we can to support the families and all those affected".

An interim report into the crash is due to be published on Wednesday, but it could take "many months" to produce a final report, investigators warned.

Announcing the offer of assistance to victims' families, London's Transport Commissioner Mike Brown said: "The TfL Sarah Hope line is available 24 hours a day to provide advice on a whole range of matters and immediate financial and other support.

"This includes covering funeral costs and travel expenses for relatives."

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 14:10, 16th November 2016
 
From the RAIB



Summary
1 At about 06:07 hrs on Wednesday 9 November 2016, a tram running between New Addington and Wimbledon derailed and overturned on a curve as it approached Sandilands Junction, in Croydon (figure 1). The tram travelled for a short distance on its side before stopping in the vicinity of the junction.

2 Seven people suffered fatal injuries in the accident. A further 51 people were taken to hospital, with eight of them suffering injuries described by the London Ambulance Service as “serious or life-threatening”.

3 The Rail Accident Investigation Branch’s (RAIB) initial review of the on-tram data recorder (OTDR) shows that the tram was travelling at a speed of approximately 70 km/h (43.5 mph) as it entered the curve, which had a maximum permitted speed of 20 km/h (12.5 mph).

The RAIB’s role and the context of this interim report

4 The RAIB is responsible for conducting independent investigations into railway
and tramway accidents in the UK. The purpose of its investigations is to improve
safety by establishing the causes of accidents and making recommendations
to reduce the likelihood of similar occurrences in the future or to mitigate their
consequences.

5 The RAIB is not a prosecuting body; its investigations are focused solely on safety
improvement and do not apportion blame or liability. The police and the Office of
Rail and Road deal with contraventions of the law. None of their statutory duties
are changed by the RAIB investigation.

6 The RAIB’s investigation is running independently of those of the British Transport
Police, the Office of Rail and Road, and the industry. However, all investigating
agencies, and the industry, are co-operating fully with each other.

7 This interim report provides some key information including the RAIB’s findings
from its initial investigation. It builds upon the information already provided
on the RAIB’s website1. A final report will be published on completion of the
investigation. All RAIB investigation reports are available on the RAIB website.

8 At any stage in its investigations the RAIB may also issue urgent safety advice
(see paragraph 32) and make recommendations to such persons as appropriate
in the circumstances

information
People

9 The driver was the only member of staff on the tram. The exact number of passengers is still being established, but is believed to be around 60.

Parties involved

10 The tramway infrastructure is owned and managed by Transport for London through its London Trams subsidiary.

11 Tram Operations Ltd, a subsidiary of First Group, operates the trams.
Key features of the route and accident location

12 The accident occurred at Sandilands Junction on the London Tramlink network in Croydon; the point at which the two easterly legs of the network from Beckenham Junction/Elmers End and New Addington converge (see figure 2).

13 The tram involved in the accident was running between Lloyd Park and Sandilands tram stops on the route from New Addington. After the Lloyd Park tram stop, the route runs in the open for about 900 metres, and then passes through Sandilands tunnels (comprised of three closely spaced tunnels with a total length of 512 metres), before emerging into a cutting approximately 100 metres before the left-hand curve on which the accident occurred. The curve has a radius of approximately 30 metres.

14 The tramway runs in its own dedicated corridor in this location (it does not change to street running until after Sandilands tram stop). The alignment through the tunnels on the approach to the curve is straight, and the track is on a gently falling gradient from the tunnel portal to the curve, before rising again through the junction.

15 The maximum permitted speed for trams approaching the area from Lloyd Park is 80 km/h (50 mph) until the curve near to Sandilands Junction, at which point it drops to 20 km/h (12.5 mph). A reflective board denotes the commencement of the 20 km/h speed restriction; it is located approximately 30 metres before the point where the derailment occurred.

16 Trams, including those in Croydon, generally operate on ‘line-of-sight’ principles, with drivers being required to check that the route ahead is clear. Indicators are provided at locations where conflict can occur, such as junctions and road crossings. There is no requirement for advance warning of speed restrictions (neither is there a requirement for speed control systems to be fitted to trams).
External circumstances

17 At the time of the accident it was dark and raining heavily.

The tram

18 The vehicle involved was tram 2551, one of 24 units (comprising three bogies and two cars joined by an articulation unit) that made up the initial Croydon fleet. It was built by Bombardier Transportation in Austria in 1998.

19 The tram was equipped with forward facing and internal closed circuit television (CCTV) cameras and an OTDR. The OTDR records key parameters such as the vehicle speed and the driver’s operation of power and brake controls.

20 The OTDR was functioning at the time of the accident, and the evidence obtained is being used in the RAIB’s investigation. However, an initial examination of the tram’s CCTV equipment suggests that it was not working at the time of the accident.

The accident

21 Tram 2551 departed from New Addington at 05:55 hrs, calling at six stops including Lloyd Park. After leaving Lloyd Park it travelled at up to 80 km/h (50 mph)(in accordance with prevailing speed restrictions), as it ran towards its next stop at Sandilands.

22 The tram entered the curve on the approach to Sandilands Junction at a speed of approximately 70 km/h (43.5 mph). As it encountered the curve, it derailed and turned over onto its right side, travelling for approximately 25 metres before it stopped.

Consequences

23 Seven people lost their lives in the accident and 51 were taken to hospital, eight of them suffering from serious injuries.

24 The right side of the tram, which made contact with the ground, was severely damaged.

25 There was some damage to the track and lineside equipment in the vicinity of the accident.

The investigation

26 The RAIB was notified via its telephone incident line at 06:42 hrs, and deployed five inspectors and two support staff to the site of the accident. The first three inspectors arrived on site at 10:02 hrs. The RAIB completed work on site at 09:20 hrs on 12 November 2016.

27 The RAIB has:
l secured relevant physical evidence including the tram;
l moved the tram to a secure location;
l obtained details from the tram’s OTDR;
l carried out a detailed survey of the track and other infrastructure in the area of the accident;
l started gathering evidence from the tram operator;
l started gathering evidence from witnesses; and
l launched an appeal for other witnesses to come forward (www.gov.uk/government/news/raib-witness-appeal).

Initial findings
Track

28 The RAIB has undertaken a survey of the track in the vicinity of the derailment and will be reviewing the findings from the survey in due course. At this stage, no evidence has been found of any track defects, or obstructions on the track, that could have contributed to the derailment.
The tram and its operation

29 Detailed examination of the tram has not yet been possible. However, the RAIB’s initial investigation has not indicated any malfunction of the tram’s braking system.

30 A tram approaching the Sandilands Junction area from Lloyd Park at 80 km/h (50 mph) would need to brake at its full service rate of 1.3 m/s2 approximately 180 metres before the speed restriction board in order to be travelling at 20 km/h (12.5 mph) when the board was reached.

31 Initial analysis of the tram’s OTDR indicates that some braking was applied in the 180 metres before the 20 km/h (12.5 mph) speed restriction board, but this was only sufficient to reduce the tram’s speed from 80 km/h (50 mph) to approximately 70 km/h (43.5 mph) by the time the tram passed the board and entered the curve on which the accident occurred.

Urgent Safety Advice

32 In the light of this accident, the RAIB has issued the following urgent safety advice to Tram Operations Ltd and London Trams:
‘The factors that led to the over-speeding are still under investigation. Until these factors are better understood, and before the junction re-opens to passenger operation, the RAIB advises London Trams and Tram Operations Ltd to jointly take measures to reduce the risk of trams approaching Sandilands Junction from the direction of New Addington at an excessive speed. Options for consideration should include the imposition of a further speed restriction before the start of the existing 20 km/h speed restriction around the curve and/or additional operational signs.’

RAIB’s future action in the investigation

33 During its investigation the RAIB will work in conjunction with other agencies to contact the families of those who lost their lives and those who were injured in the accident. The RAIB will also be contacting any passengers who were on-board the tram when the accident occurred, but who were not injured.

34 The RAIB’s ongoing investigation will include consideration of:
l the sequence of events before and during the accident;
l events following the accident, including the emergency response and how passengers evacuated from the tram;
l the way in which the tram was being driven and any influencing factors;
l the design, configuration and condition of the infrastructure on this section of the route, including signage;
l the tram’s behaviour during the derailment and how people sustained their injuries;
l any previous over-speeding incidents at Sandilands Junction; and
l any relevant underlying management factors.

35 The RAIB’s investigation report will include recommendations to reduce the likelihood and/or consequence of similar events occurring in the future.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TaplowGreen at 21:09, 14th November 2016
 
BBC 1 London News very interesting tonight, net seems to be closing in on First Group over this incident - God help them if it emerges they knew about the speeding and did nothing (which very much seems to be the case judging by these reports and others)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37979121

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by stuving at 17:39, 14th November 2016
 
Form the Croydon Advertiser:

Former Croydon tram driver claims 'crazy' working conditions mean staff are 'never fully awake'

By CBallinger  |  Posted: November 11, 2016

A former tram driver has criticised the working conditions staff are subjected to and believes "crazy" shift patterns could have contributed to the fatal Croydon crash which has claimed seven lives.

The driver of the tram which overturned on Wednesday morning is alleged to have told a passenger immediately after the derailment that he thought he had blacked out at the controls.

The 42-year-old from Beckenham was arrested on suspicion of manslaughter and released on bail until May. It is understood that establishing if the driver blacked out, or fell asleep, will be a crucial part of the police investigation.

The former driver with six years' experience has told the Croydon Advertiser he understands drivers have fallen asleep while in control of trams in the past and that he "always felt in a bit of a daze" himself.

The man, who asked not to be named, said colleagues would complain to each other about being unable to get into a regular sleeping pattern because of the different shifts they would constantly be working.

He added that the tight left-hand turn where the tram derailed on Wednesday just before Sandilands station is considered a "nasty bend" by drivers.

Speaking to the Advertiser he said: "If you ask me people need to understand the context of what pressures are put on tram drivers before they give this driver a raw deal. [If he did fall asleep] I don't think he is entirely to blame, the working conditions are responsible.

"If he did [fall asleep] he wouldn't be the first and he won't be the last.

"Nobody is ever fully awake, I was always feeling in a bit of a daze, and that is because the way the shifts work doesn't allow the drivers to get a regular sleep pattern.

"When I was a driver we worked seven days on the trot and then got four days off. We'd then work seven days again before getting two days off and then work two days for one day off. It was crazy.

"During all this you could have a week of early starts, at say 3.45am, and then a week of late shifts finishing at 2am. When I was a driver the longest shift was nine hours and the shortest six hours.

"You could never get into a routine of proper sleep.

"At the Therapia Lane tram depot there were three vending machines and the only drink available in one of them was Red Bull - that tells you everything you need to know.

"We would all moan to each other about the shift system and the lack of sleep we were getting."
Former Croydon tram driver claims 'crazy' working conditions mean staff are 'never fully awake'
...

Note the date. The quotes appeared verbatim in yesterday's Sunday Times, before being recycled in today's Times, pretty much verbatim too. So as to being their copyright ...

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by grahame at 17:09, 14th November 2016
 
The Time today carries an article which is critical of the shift system on the Croydon Tramlink - but that article is their copyright / behind a paywall and I'm probably not supposed to share it in public.  Headline is "Tramdrivers left 'in a daze' by erratic shifts". See http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=17659.0 for more details if you're a frequent posting member.  I will attempt to resolve what I can and cannot post here in public from The Times and bring further data if I can, or others are welcome to post the same stuff if it's elsewhere in a public place.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by grahame at 15:48, 14th November 2016
 
Metrolink started in 1992, although for many years the vast majority of its route (Bury - Altrincham) was former BR lines with just a small section of on street running.

Even the original section, though, ran on a railway alignment with ended in a rather sharp corner (at Victoria Station).  And on the Eccles branch ... much more recent ... Cornbrook to Pomona id virtually dead straight then the line does a sudden right turn at the station.  But I think the Manchester Metro has two modes of tram running - street and off street and I'm not sure how they switch between them; perhaps there are significant differences to the Croydon system, but whether that's the case or not I would suspect there are people in Manchester, Birmingham, Sheffield, Nottingham and Blackpool all taking a very careful look at their own operations to make sure their safety cases are watertight

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by John R at 15:07, 14th November 2016
 
Metrolink started in 1992, although for many years the vast majority of its route (Bury - Altrincham) was former BR lines with just a small section of on street running.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 15:05, 14th November 2016
 
Metrolink in Manchester is newer, I think - what safety systems are built in to that?

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by stuving at 20:52, 13th November 2016
 
There is an ORR document called GUIDANCE ON TRAMWAYS Railway Safety Publication 2 online. It's from 2006, but still current.

What does it have to say about the dangers of sharp bends, the transition from off- to on-road, and overspeeding? Nothing. Not a word. There is only this very general point:
4 Application of this guidance should provide a sufficient level of safety for approval to be
given by the Inspectorate, provided that it has been demonstrated that the use of the
guidance is wholly applicable to the works, plant or equipment.
5 If this is not the case, then the Inspectorate will wish to be satisfied that due
consideration has been given to ensuring that all intolerable risks have been eliminated
and that all remaining risks have been reduced to be as low as reasonably practicable
(known as ALARP).
It also has this:
Effects on existing works
6 This document does not apply retrospectively to existing works, plant and equipment.
However, new or altered works, plant and equipment might introduce incompatibilities or
inconsistencies with the existing works, plant or equipment. In this case, approval may
only be given if appropriate arrangements have been made to address these safety
implications, which may include modifications to the existing works, plant or equipment.

Behind this is the Railways and Other Transport Systems (Approval of Works, Plant and Equipment)
Regulations 1994 (SI 1994/157) as amended
*. And there are several ORR guidance notes to that. And then there is a European level of railway standards, including Common Safety Methods (or which risk assessment is one), which may or may not apply to tramways. I couldn't really say from a quick look if anything does apply to this case.

Note that most of this applies to changes, not existing systems, so Tramlink (opened in 2000) may not have been covered by anything of the kind. While there must have been some safety regulations at the time, it may have been different (and not just by being much, much, shorter).

* No not that one, it's The Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006 (as amended).

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 19:15, 13th November 2016
 
A further update, from the BBC:

Croydon falls silent to remember tram crash victims

The people of Croydon fell silent in remembrance of the seven victims of Wednesday's tram crash.

It comes a day after those killed in the accident where named by the British Transport Police (BTP).

They were Donald Collett, 62, from Croydon, Philip Logan, 52, and Robert Huxley, 63, both from New Addington.

Those already named were Mark Smith, Dane Chinnery, Phil Seary and Dorota Rynkiewicz.

Bishop Jonathan Clarke of Croydon Minster read out the names during the cathedral's annual service of remembrance for the fallen in two world wars and in other conflicts.

The tram driver, Alfred Dorris, 42, from Beckenham, south-east London, is currently on bail.  He was arrested after the derailment on suspicion of manslaughter.  Investigations into the crash are continuing.

A spokesman for FirstGroup, which operates the south London tram network for TfL said: "We can confirm that Alfred Dorris has worked for us since March 2008. Given the ongoing investigation we don't have anything further to add at this point."


Tributes have been paid to Philip Logan (left), Donald Collett (centre) and Robert Huxley, (right)



Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by stuving at 10:13, 12th November 2016
 
.............and that (as is becoming increasingly clear) it was an accident waiting to happen through excessive speeding which appears to have been widely known and acknowledged, and yet nothing was done to prevent it.

That's where I expect the RAIB will concentrate their comments. There must have been some kind of risk assessment on the network, and this point - fast off-road section followed by slow corner, still off-road - should have rung bells. On the road the driver has to drive by eye, and automatic safety systems don't seem to be at all common for trams anywhere (except tram-trains sharing track with trains). So driver behaviour is critical, as as such needs to be monitored.

Without asking for new or specialised equipment, the operators might do several things:
  • Seeking, and listening to, passenger feedback.
  • Installing speed monitors at critical sites.
  • Sample checks on recordings from ODTR or control room.
  • Incognito observers.

I suspect a speed limit like this has a big safety margin, partly because there is no overspeed detection system. That might be consciously by design, or just that is seems a good idea. But drivers may exploit that margin, reasoning that they can go faster because of it.

If you look at it as part of the safety design, it has a specific purpose: it means you can monitor speeds only occasionally and if they are too high remind drivers (as forcefully as you need to) to stick to the limit. In other words, small overspeeding incidents will happen, and are part of the feedback path that prevents dangerous overspeeding. But that path is purely procedural, and someone has to remember to do it, and to keep doing it.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by IndustryInsider at 10:03, 12th November 2016
 
.............and that (as is becoming increasingly clear) it was an accident waiting to happen through excessive speeding which appears to have been widely known and acknowledged, and yet nothing was done to prevent it.

The good thing is that the RAIB report will leave no stone unturned in investigating the incident and won't gloss over any factors that may have contributed towards it.  I'll be interested to read it.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 09:51, 12th November 2016
 
Pretty well spread - those above aged 19-57

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by TaplowGreen at 09:24, 12th November 2016
 
The tragedy of this event seems to be the age profile of those killed, so young 

Indeed ...

.............and that (as is becoming increasingly clear) it was an accident waiting to happen through excessive speeding which appears to have been widely known and acknowledged, and yet nothing was done to prevent it.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by GBM at 08:18, 12th November 2016
 
And I suspect, a breath test.

Yes, standard procedure (on the heavy rail network at least) is for a drugs and alcohol screen to be conducted on any individuals involved in an incident of any serious nature.  This would be a urine test rather than breath test though, but if the police are involved and arrest anyone they would no doubt undertake a breath test themselves.

I remember many years ago as a driver I reported a 'near miss' to the signaller involving some trackside workers, a couple of whom were not in a position of safety when I approached.  I later found out that they were all immediately relieved of their duties and the whole team were tested for drugs and alcohol - this sort of zero tolerance approach is part of the reason the railways are so safe.
First bus perform a drugs and alcohol test prior to being accepted.  The company Doctor also performs various medical tests, including urine tests.
Thereafter, random testing for ALL employees (including travel office staff, admin staff, etc, etc).  A company medical every 5 (?) years; annually when over 65.
Also after any serious incident.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by grahame at 08:01, 12th November 2016
 
The tragedy of this event seems to be the age profile of those killed, so young 

Indeed ...

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Electric train at 07:50, 12th November 2016
 
A further update, from the BBC:

Croydon tram crash: More victims named after derailment


The named victims are Mark Smith, Dane Chinnery, Phil Seary and Dorota Rynkiewicz (L-R)

Four people who died when a tram derailed in south London, killing six men and one woman, have been named.

Phil Seary, Mark Smith, Dorota Rynkiewicz and Dane Chinnery were all travelling on the tram when it crashed just after 06:00 GMT on Wednesday.

The vehicle left the track as it negotiated a sharp bend. More than 50 people were also injured.

An extra minute's silence was added to the Armistice Day ceremony at Croydon Cenotaph to remember the victims.

British Transport Police (BTP) is investigating claims made in a Facebook post last week that a tram "lifted onto one side at 40mph" at the same spot.




The tragedy of this event seems to be the age profile of those killed, so young 

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 23:33, 11th November 2016
 
A further update, from the BBC:

Croydon tram crash: More victims named after derailment


The named victims are Mark Smith, Dane Chinnery, Phil Seary and Dorota Rynkiewicz (L-R)

Four people who died when a tram derailed in south London, killing six men and one woman, have been named.

Phil Seary, Mark Smith, Dorota Rynkiewicz and Dane Chinnery were all travelling on the tram when it crashed just after 06:00 GMT on Wednesday.

The vehicle left the track as it negotiated a sharp bend. More than 50 people were also injured.

An extra minute's silence was added to the Armistice Day ceremony at Croydon Cenotaph to remember the victims.

British Transport Police (BTP) is investigating claims made in a Facebook post last week that a tram "lifted onto one side at 40mph" at the same spot.



Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 20:24, 11th November 2016
 
3 amputees amongst the injured, according to the Evening Standard. Another with a collapsed lung

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by JayMac at 18:54, 11th November 2016
 
@LondonTrams have now removed the picture of tram 2551 from their Twitter header.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by LiskeardRich at 14:08, 11th November 2016
 
I was told that all staff employed on the railways were also subject to random testing, regardless of whether they had safety critical duties.

A friend was only telling me last week he was subjected to drink and drug testing on his first morning back from annual leave. He is a guard working units in Cornwall/Devon.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by JayMac at 13:14, 11th November 2016
 
My brief employ with FGW via an agency, as a station customer service assistant, saw me having to undergo drug and alcohol screening before being given the job.

I was told that all staff employed on the railways were also subject to random testing, regardless of whether they had safety critical duties.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by IndustryInsider at 12:57, 11th November 2016
 
And I suspect, a breath test.

Yes, standard procedure (on the heavy rail network at least) is for a drugs and alcohol screen to be conducted on any individuals involved in an incident of any serious nature.  This would be a urine test rather than breath test though, but if the police are involved and arrest anyone they would no doubt undertake a breath test themselves.

I remember many years ago as a driver I reported a 'near miss' to the signaller involving some trackside workers, a couple of whom were not in a position of safety when I approached.  I later found out that they were all immediately relieved of their duties and the whole team were tested for drugs and alcohol - this sort of zero tolerance approach is part of the reason the railways are so safe.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 12:30, 11th November 2016
 
And I suspect, a breath test.

The extremities of the Metrolink in Manchester are the same - as in fact is the Birmingham set up between Birmingham & wolverhampton

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by IndustryInsider at 12:11, 11th November 2016
 
Driver has been released on Police bail after being arrested for manslaughter, looks like they're checking his mobile phone records as well as investigating whether he fell asleep.

Standard procedure to check phone records.  That is done as a matter of course when investigating railway incidents that are far less serious than this one.

Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by onthecushions at 12:06, 11th November 2016
 
I would make no comment about the driver or other operating staff.

I am however surprised to see what is actually called a tramway. A tram as I understand it travels along shared carriageways with other road vehicles, the driver, like other road users (such as us) relying on sight and personal judgement, "permissive block" as we might call it..  The system in question does in fact twist around central Croydon's back lanes but most of it uses the former Wimbledon - West Croydon and Beckenham Junction - South Croydon branch lines. These were conventional railways, operated  by class 416 units with full block signalling, marking of speed limits etc. They have been somewhat adapted with curves barely 2ch (40m) radius with AFAIK no signing or signal protection, with local speed limits as low as 12mph on 50mph routes.

The trams are 2x15m cars (electric Pacers in fact), 36t, packing 480kW (640hp, 18hp/t), carrying 200 people at 50mph,  with 750V dangling above.

If it looks like a railway, perhaps it is a railway.

OTC


Re: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016
Posted by ChrisB at 11:39, 11th November 2016
 
Indeed, bailed until a date in May17

 
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