| Grand Central applies for Newcastle–Brighton via North Downs Posted by Richard Fairhurst at 12:48, 25th April 2025 |     |
Arriva's Grand Central arm are apparently applying to run five trains daily each way between Newcastle and Brighton, via Banbury, Oxford, Reading and Gatwick:
https://news.arriva.co.uk/news/arriva-group-submits-open-access-rail-application-to-connect-newcastle-and-brighton-via-london-gatwick
Given that CrossCountry don't show any signs of bringing their own Newcastle–Reading service back up to full strength, good luck to them. Suspect it will be deemed too abstractive though.
(via the Oxford Clarion - https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:sehe5pdc7ptfh5ayttdusqpp/post/3lnmxy7cfqk2x )
| Re: Grand Central applies for Newcastle–Brighton via North Downs Posted by eightonedee at 13:51, 25th April 2025 | |
That looks like it would be an attractive alternative for getting to Gatwick from Reading compared to the current GWR Turbo service - assuming decent rolling stock.
| Re: Grand Central applies for Newcastle–Brighton via North Downs Posted by ChrisB at 13:52, 25th April 2025 | |
Indeed - and maybe too extractive....I wonder what rolling stock they have identified?
| Re: Grand Central applies for Newcastle–Brighton via North Downs Posted by The Tall Controller at 15:12, 25th April 2025 | |
They're saying trains with 300 seats which puts it into 5-car Class 80x territory (302-326 seats), or perhaps the ex-TransPennine Mk5+loco (291 seats)?
Arriva's order of 9 new 'tri-mode' Hitachi units for their East Coast route might be part of the long-term plan, but even they aren't due in service until 2028.
| Re: Grand Central applies for Newcastle–Brighton via North Downs Posted by ChrisB at 15:31, 25th April 2025 | |
Chiltern has/had its eyes on the ex-TPE stock....
| Re: Grand Central applies for Newcastle–Brighton via North Downs Posted by ray951 at 19:49, 25th April 2025 | |
I saw someone say it was planned to use class 180 units.
| Re: Grand Central applies for Newcastle–Brighton via North Downs Posted by JayMac at 21:52, 25th April 2025 | |
Indeed - and maybe too extractive....I wonder what rolling stock they have identified?
For a lot of the route Arriva would be abstracting revenue from Arriva...
| Re: Grand Central applies for Newcastle–Brighton via North Downs Posted by eightonedee at 23:33, 25th April 2025 | |
On the extraction point, there's plenty of local traffic between the stations missed out by this proposed service to keep the current GWR service well used throughout its length. Indeed, it might even encourage more who live along the North Downs route to use the train to get to Gatwick even if it means changing trains at one of the proposed service's stopping points.
| Re: Grand Central applies for Newcastle–Brighton via North Downs Posted by grahame at 06:39, 26th April 2025 | |
Indeed - and maybe too extractive....I wonder what rolling stock they have identified?
For a lot of the route Arriva would be abstracting revenue from Arriva...
Which is excellent if your government XC contract runs out in 202x and you want to continue to use your expertise in providing train services to a customer base with similar metrics - snd indeed the same customer base.
Brigthon snd Gatwick to the Midlands and north of England is a known / identified market from the past - noting the 1S76 - http://www.1s76.com
WELCOME to 1S76.com the rise and fall of cross country train services to and from Brighton.
May 1979 saw the re-introduction of through services from the Midlands to the Sussex Coast and brought daily locomotive haulage back to Brighton to break up the solid diet of EMU’s. The services have served various destinations over the years before the DfT and Arriva killed them off in December 2008.
May 1979 saw the re-introduction of through services from the Midlands to the Sussex Coast and brought daily locomotive haulage back to Brighton to break up the solid diet of EMU’s. The services have served various destinations over the years before the DfT and Arriva killed them off in December 2008.
Fond memories of a summer day in 1997 or 1998 when I was on a narrow boat at Hatton with a gang of teenagers and Lisa flew in from there then-home of Florida with Freddy Laker to Gatwick and took the trains to join us at Hatton, where we had worked up the flight first thing in the morning snd were waiting on the Grand Union.
| Re: Grand Central applies for Newcastle–Brighton via North Downs Posted by Mark A at 08:05, 26th April 2025 | |
*Anecdote klaxon*
Dover, not Brighton, but, fond memories of pre-channel tunnel days and two American customers leaving a conference in Paris and needing to meet me in Oxford that evening - for good measure I was involved in an event at Greenwich.
At Dover, advised them to head for the late afternoon loco and carriages heading for... I can't remember. I left Greenwich and headed to Chatham, waited for said loco and carriages, met them on the train, and as it made its way across from South London to the GWML, was able to include in the general conversation a briefing on how best to thrive during their forthcoming week's holiday.
The only fly in the ointment was that this was 1986, the UK government had just allowed America to fly from I think it was fairford to bomb Libya and on hearing my companions' accents there was a bit of a frisson in the railway carriage. Shortly after that, I took a bike ride in the Upper Thames Valley above Lechlade and local feelings were being forcibly expressed and not only in several of the churches there. Said bike ride was then somewhat curtailed when on minor country lanes, encounters with a series of rather cold police - this was summer, so, not cold in the physical sense - more in the sense of the reception they gave me.
Dragging this, screaming, back on topic, the Saturday train that ran the Dover - Oxford leg before heading off further north was at least eight carriages and possibly more and was very comfortably busy throughout. Forty years on, the network has changed and Eurostar will be carrying some of those people, but, turning to Brighton, the proposed service will surely find cheerful loadings to and from the south coast. Presumably it will be a fit with the capacity and current services between Reading and Redhill?
Mark
| Re: Grand Central applies for Newcastle–Brighton via North Downs Posted by ChrisB at 15:27, 26th April 2025 | |
Indeed - and maybe too extractive....I wonder what rolling stock they have identified?
For a lot of the route Arriva would be abstracting revenue from Arriva...
Rather.....the DfT/taxman.....
| Re: Grand Central applies for Newcastle–Brighton via North Downs Posted by Noggin at 18:08, 26th April 2025 | |
Indeed - and maybe too extractive....I wonder what rolling stock they have identified?
For a lot of the route Arriva would be abstracting revenue from Arriva...
Which is excellent if your government XC contract runs out in 202x and you want to continue to use your expertise in providing train services to a customer base with similar metrics - snd indeed the same customer base.
And if you're canny, your best members of staff too.
| Re: Grand Central applies for Newcastle–Brighton via North Downs Posted by stuving at 18:04, 10th October 2026 | |
This popped up in Wokingham Today this week, and I was not quite sure what I remembered about it, or why it was news. They did mention the four 180s GC have pre-booked for this route if approved; it was also linked in some reports to the decisions promised last week. I think it is still due real soon now, honest, so I did a bit of revision of the details.
It was first submitted in April 2025, and revised in December, and is one of the five further OA applications ORR have in their in tray after the three they killed off last week. These are all "section 17" applications, meaning Network Rail (and others) are disputing their acceptability. There's a list of them behind the link on this page, and the description of GC's proposal is in their "Form P". There are also other documents there now, e.g. trying to persuade NR how easy it is to fit these paths in.
The full route they are asking for runs (and calls at): Newcastle, Durham, Darlington, Northallerton, York, Doncaster, Sheffield, Derby, Burton-on-Trent, Birmingham New Street, Warwick Parkway, Banbury, Oxford, Reading, Wokingham, Guildford, Redhill, Gatwick Airport, Haywards Heath and Brighton.
it's not going to be impressively quick, as on some bits - notably the Brighton Line - the only capacity they can claim is spare is on the slow lines. They do still claim a time advantage but that's mainly by running direct from their stations to Gatwick (which is their big draw in terms of attracting enough passengers).
This is their rationale, from the Form P:
Through this application, GC is seeking to provide more direct rail connectivity to areas which we consider underserved, and provide passengers with an additional option for environmentally friendly transport to London Gatwick Airport from the Midlands and North East of England, when compared to driving, or coach travel.
The new services will bring the benefits of competition, as experienced on the East Coast Mainline (ECML), to the cross- country route, which between the ECML and South East of England has no competition to the fare setter, other than premium fares via London.
This application will support the continued expansion of GC to the benefit of passengers, in particular introducing direct rail connectivity between the South Coast and the Northeast of England, where GC has a long track record of supporting underserved communities, while also growing overall revenue and patronage on rail services. In addition, this new proposed route will also directly connect England’s second most populous city, Birmingham and surrounding areas to the second busiest airport in the UK, which in 2024 served 43.2 million passengers, and whose stated goal is to serve 80 million passengers annually by the late 2030s with the project to open a second runway currently underway.
GC has already had discussions with London Gatwick, who welcome this application and are excited about the opportunities it creates for more direct connectivity to the airport. It also re- connects Birmingham with the largest British conurbation without a current direct rail service, in Brighton and Hove.
This application is made considering the implementation of the East Coast Mainline (ECML) Event Steering Group (ESG) timetable in December 2025, our timetable also makes updates and considers the May 2026 timetable.
These new direct GC services provide rail journey times between the Southeast and Birmingham/Oxford, which compete favourably with the fastest current rail journey times (e.g. Gatwick Airport – Birmingham GC 3h 00, compared to 2h 40), which involve at least one interchange, usually including a change between London termini. Direct journey times are also comparable with average road journey times (c3h 00 for Gatwick Airport – Birmingham by car, and 4h 00 by coach), without the added uncertainty from the use of the congested M25. This is particularly true of poorly served stations for these routes, such as Guildford (Guildford – Birmingham GC 2h 14, against current rail 2h 30 via Reading, or 2h 45 by car).
On longer journeys from the Southeast to the Northeast, the GC proposed direct journey times also compare favourably with car and coach journey times, although they are slower than the premium- priced services requiring a cross-London interchange. For example, beyond Derby, coach services to Gatwick Airport require an interchange, which means the current cost-effective solution takes, for example, from York 8 hours by coach and 5 hours by car, compared to the direct proposed 5 hours by GC.
The new services will bring the benefits of competition, as experienced on the East Coast Mainline (ECML), to the cross- country route, which between the ECML and South East of England has no competition to the fare setter, other than premium fares via London.
This application will support the continued expansion of GC to the benefit of passengers, in particular introducing direct rail connectivity between the South Coast and the Northeast of England, where GC has a long track record of supporting underserved communities, while also growing overall revenue and patronage on rail services. In addition, this new proposed route will also directly connect England’s second most populous city, Birmingham and surrounding areas to the second busiest airport in the UK, which in 2024 served 43.2 million passengers, and whose stated goal is to serve 80 million passengers annually by the late 2030s with the project to open a second runway currently underway.
GC has already had discussions with London Gatwick, who welcome this application and are excited about the opportunities it creates for more direct connectivity to the airport. It also re- connects Birmingham with the largest British conurbation without a current direct rail service, in Brighton and Hove.
This application is made considering the implementation of the East Coast Mainline (ECML) Event Steering Group (ESG) timetable in December 2025, our timetable also makes updates and considers the May 2026 timetable.
These new direct GC services provide rail journey times between the Southeast and Birmingham/Oxford, which compete favourably with the fastest current rail journey times (e.g. Gatwick Airport – Birmingham GC 3h 00, compared to 2h 40), which involve at least one interchange, usually including a change between London termini. Direct journey times are also comparable with average road journey times (c3h 00 for Gatwick Airport – Birmingham by car, and 4h 00 by coach), without the added uncertainty from the use of the congested M25. This is particularly true of poorly served stations for these routes, such as Guildford (Guildford – Birmingham GC 2h 14, against current rail 2h 30 via Reading, or 2h 45 by car).
On longer journeys from the Southeast to the Northeast, the GC proposed direct journey times also compare favourably with car and coach journey times, although they are slower than the premium- priced services requiring a cross-London interchange. For example, beyond Derby, coach services to Gatwick Airport require an interchange, which means the current cost-effective solution takes, for example, from York 8 hours by coach and 5 hours by car, compared to the direct proposed 5 hours by GC.
Of course it will still most likely be refused.
