Nineteen tri-mode Flex Class 769s for GWR
19/04/2018 in Network

Nineteen tri-mode Class 769 Flex units will enter traffic with Great Western Railway from Spring 2019.

They will be able to operate using third-rail, overhead wires or diesel engines, and will be used initially to support GWR’s introduction of refurbished Class 387/1s on Heathrow Express.

They will feature free WiFi and power at every seat. The trains will be fitted with air-cooling, extra luggage space and new seat covers.

GWR said in a statement: “Initially, the fleet will support the introduction of refreshed trains on Heathrow Express services, but will be predominantly be used on routes between Reading and Gatwick, and Reading and Oxford, where the train’s tri-mode can be used to its fullest. However, the tri-mode nature of the train will give GWR maximum flexibility to use them in other areas of the network should they be required.

“Final details of exactly how and where the new fleet will be used are currently being drawn up, and expected to be finalised later this year.”

GWR Managing Director, Mark Hopwood said: “We are already delivering the biggest fleet upgrade in a generation across the Great Western network, but today’s news shows we have not stopped looking at ways to improve our service for customers by adding extra capacity to our network.”

Mary Grant, CEO of Porterbrook, said: “These trains will offer GWR greater operational flexibility with reduced operating costs; at the same time their conversion and upgrade will see skilled engineering jobs secured in the UK supply chain.”

The four-car trains will be converted from redundant Class 319 electric multiple units. This releases a similar number of Class 165/’166’ Turbos for use in the Bristol area.

    The FULL story will appear in RAIL 852, published on May 9, and available digitally from May 5 on Android/iPad.
    To read about the initial Flex concept, read RAIL 818, available digitally.

    Author:  Richard Clinnick

‘Reading to Oxford’ presumably means the peak Reading-Oxford services that are Turbo operated as well as possibly some of the Oxford to Didcot shuttles?

will be slower than 387 and probably 165

As EMU's the 319's were 100mph units, weren't they?

So, yes a bit slower than a 387, but a bit quicker than a Turbo, although true to say we don't know what their speed will be under diesel power?

Kind of irrelevant on the North Downs anyway, as I don't think there is any linespeed above 70?

As EMU's the 319's were 100mph units, weren't they?

So, yes a bit slower than a 387, but a bit quicker than a Turbo, although true to say we don't know what their speed will be under diesel power?

Kind of irrelevant on the North Downs anyway, as I don't think there is any linespeed above 70?

If this story is true, it does beg the question why 800s are going to be used on the Bedwyn services

Indeed, and one wonders whether a 4-coach 769 would fit in the Bedwyn turnback without need to extend it (which as far as I know work has yet to start on)?

Is an 8-coach 769 longer or shorter than an 8-coach 387? (which is what the platform extensions at Thatcham and Theale are being extended to accommodate)

Also (while I'm at it!), will a 4-coach 769 fit at some of the smaller stations on the North Downs?

A 4 car 319 is roughly 80 metres long. A 3 car 165 is 66m long and a 4 car 387 is roughly 81 metres.

I don't think the 319s ever had SDO fitted as they were typically run in 4 and 8 car sets and stopped at stations that could take 8 cars.

Appleford springs to mind as well.
I know there were plans to lengthen the stations between Didcot and Oxford including Appleford, but since electrification has been stopped nothing has happened. 

I would be concerned about these trains running into Paddington as future traffic density will depend on acceleration and similar traction top speeds which these won't have.

Aren't more 387's being released next year from C2C anyway? Surely a more streamlined fleet would be better for GWR, this only complicates it further, and then puts up the cost tickets in extra training, refresher training, parts etc.

Aren't more 387's being released next year from C2C anyway?

What happened to the battery powered 379 that was going about in Greater Anglia? Surely Didcot to Oxford would be enough on batteries, and it could be recharged back on electric overheads?   Also GWR removed the 3rd rail, which could have been used on the Gatwick services. Either way, someone doesn't seem to have a lot of common sense here.

Battery 379 was converted back after the trial.  Do you mean 387 shoegear? I don’t believe GWR removed their 387 pickup shoes.  I’ve seen a few people questioning online why it is still there, but all the recent deliveries still have shoebeams visible, although the actual shoes will be retracted, and all did DC testing on the Brighton line.

Paul

I was told the shoegear was removed after testing on the Brighton Mainline...

As for the Battery 379, where any test results handed out? Also wasn't it only operate a branchline service, where as if a battery power mode was fitted to the 387's they could then charge up from Didcot back up to Paddington.

I don’t think so.  What I’m seeing is that all the trains still have shoe-beams, as can easily be seen in the numerous videos available online.  The shoe arm is in the raised position when on AC, and the shoes themselves are nearly out of sight behind the shoe-beam.  Now the contact shoe itself can easily be removed from the arm as it is a wearing or sacrificial part, but it’s absence doesn’t really mean the DC capability is “removed”.   

Nothing was ever made public AFAIK.  Suggests to me that the trial wasn’t as overwhelmingly successful as battery fans might have hoped.

Paul

I could easily see BAN-GTW services, utilising the underpass east of RDG to access the Guildford route.

There is currently one residual through Oxford-Paddington stopper (fast from/to Maidenhead) in each direction, up early morning and back evening peak. Not clear what would happen with this in a 'no turbo' scenario, apart from being binned.

Onward dreams towards extending from Banbury to Birmingham, and from Gatwick to Brighton? 

GWR has a history (old and new companies) of extra stops in expresses on peak routes at busy commuter times and very late at night - witness extra stops at stations like Severn Tunnel Junction and Dilton Marsh.  As well as binning the service, would there be an option of starting a first service on am 802 diagram from Oxford somewhat ahead of the normal clock face to still provide a direct link to London, and reversing the process in the evening?

Battery 379 was converted back after the trial.  Do you mean 387 shoegear? I don’t believe GWR removed their 387 pickup shoes.  I’ve seen a few people questioning online why it is still there, but all the recent deliveries still have shoebeams visible, although the actual shoes will be retracted, and all did DC testing on the Brighton line.

Paul

There is currently one residual through Oxford-Paddington stopper (fast from/to Maidenhead) in each direction, up early morning and back evening peak. Not clear what would happen with this in a 'no turbo' scenario, apart from being binned.

387 have retractable shoe gear, therefore it looks like it has been removed but it has not.

Anyone on our network know what's happening about these trains?

In the light of recent correspondence here about air condition/cooling, cascading of Turbo trains etc, I have done some Googling to  find out what specification we can expect. I ended up on something called RailUK Forums (a pale imitation of our own!) where there was much conflicting information as to the comfort of the trains from which they are being converted, and the delightful suggestion we should follow the French and call them Bi-Bis (rather than trimodes).

More significantly is the suggestion that there are problems with developing the trains - it is suggested that there is not yet a working prototype, and there may be problems with the conversion.

Should we start worrying? 

Noggin  - the answer to your question is - both! It is a shame that the short-sighted decision to halt electrification has led to what appears to be a looming rolling stock crisis as the Turbos are cascaded to replace trains that are not too much older which are being transferred elsewhere, but services which were (presumably) assumed to be electrified by now (Didcot - Oxford, the Henley and Windsor branches) now have to be served by something that does not need OHL electicity. Recycled late 1980s stopgaps do not look an attractive substitute.

Does your source indicate if the problem is corrosion of these ageing trains, or simply that the weight of engines and generators is too much for the structure? Either way, it is not looking good.

The first Class 769 seen in the wild ...

Acceleration, well, initial accelaration at least, looks better than I feared it might be.

   
Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
« Reply #190 on: January 21, 2019, 10:34:02 pm »
Reply with quoteQuote
Quote from: eightonedee on January 21, 2019, 10:13:10 pm
1 - I sincerely hope that the Didcot/Oxford shuttle is only temporary. Indeed I understood the rationale of the bi-mode/trimode was to restore a proper full stopping service all the way between Reading and Oxford, mitigating the adverse impact of the dreadful decision to cut the electrification to Oxford short at Didcot.

2 - I am not so sure that the case for trains beyond Oxford all going west to Swindon/Bristol etc is strong. The potential passenger traffic from the Reading/Basingstoke/Winchester/Southampton/Bournemouth axis surely justifies a substantial part of any southward traffic going east. Reading alone generates considerable volume, and more capacity might encourage more to take the train not the car. I have over the years had a number of regular meeting commitments in Norfolk and Cambridgeshire and used the car to avoid the hassle of crossing London by tube at peak times.

1 - From what I’ve so far heard, the Tri-mode 769s will not be used on services to Oxford.  They will be used on Reading to Gatwick trains as well as covering for the loss of 387s to Heathrow Express on the Paddington to Didcot services, as well as possibly some of the Thames Valley branches.  That of course may not be the current plan, or it may be the current plan but will change.  I’ll see if I can find out.

We had a chat about some concerns, during which I was told that GWR did intend to introduce class 769 bi-modes to restore a full Reading- Oxford stopping service in the coming year. Furthermore I was told GWR still hoped to introduce a third service each hour on the North Downs line, preferably a semi-fast Gatwick and some to run from Oxford.

Incidentally there seems a growing collection of ex-Thameslink 319s at Reading depot, but as far as I can see from the passing train they don't look to have any additional underfloor gubbins by way of diesel engines, generators etc. Anyone know why?

Any update on the departure of the 153s?

Two unconverted 319s have arrived at Reading Depot so driver training can start.

The first converted 769 is due in July

Rumour has it that the first 769 will be delivered in May (now September) but won't be in service until December at the earliest.

Also Network Rail are saying it will have to run on Diesel power, all the way from Oxford to Gatwick! Due to incompatible electricfication.

This is despite a good portion of the route having third rail or 25Kv electrification and the 769s as 319s having worked successfully as bimode electrics from Bedford to Brighton for many years.

Moderators i tried to find the 769 thread but it did't come up so please move.
 

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC, even if not immediately.

They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC, even if not immediately.

If they can only run on diesel,  can they match 165/6 performance on the  North Downs line? Indeed, just on the fairly flat Didcot to Reading run they could struggle to fit in around electric services.  To see journey times worsen after such an expensive electrification programme is going be embarrassing.

They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC, even if not immediately.

Depends on the traction pack and the levels of signal immunisation, just needs to acceptance to be carried out, but the TOC has to pay to have this done and the NoBo

Approvals

Helen talked about the compliance and approval process. The modification is not considered an upgrade or renewal and does not require authorisation under the common safety method for risk evaluation and assessment, although this process has been voluntarily applied as a robust means of managing safety. SNC-Lavalin is providing integrated Notified Body, Designated Body and Assessment Body services.

Full details of this process would justify its own article, and Helen described some of the challenges applying the approval process mandated by the Technical Standards for Interoperability (TSI) regulations on a 30-year-old train. For example, TSI noise requirements do not apply, but pass-by noise will be compared to other DMUs operating the same services on the route; in the case of the Northern trains, this means comparing with the Class 15X units. Porterbrook needs to show it is no worse, but is actually aiming for it to be a demonstrable improvement. This, and other type approval testing, was expected to be carried out at the nearby Great Central Railway.

According to info posted elsewhere there are going to be 19 class 769s and a naming list has been drawn up based on mythical characters.

Very appropriate.

I presume that's a reference to proving on additional routes, after the "new" train has been approved (with all that paperwork) and tested somewhere at Porterbrook's cost. I found this in a Rail Engineer article (which isn't responding now) - from a visit/interview mainly with Helen Simpson (engineering innovation and development manager of Porterbrook):

Of course they may have discovered Hofstadter's law applies to NR's approvals requirements.

The plan was to not change the traction at all, just feed it from an on-board generator-alternator-converter. Rather oddly, the shoe gear would be put somewhere new (and perhaps be new itself?). But something must have delayed the programme - by what, a year and a bit? - and that might include some rethinking of that plan, though I've not seen any mention of it.

Quote from: eightonedee on Today at 04:40:08 pm
Quote
A quick look at the North Downs Line timetable suggests to me that there are 10 daily diagrams or so on that line; not sure how many are pairs of units, though.

The short answer "none" I think. The 769s would (when they eventually arrive!) be useful for Reading-Oxford services as a  replacement for the Turbos used there. I think that there are currently some two unit services on this service - one I used to catch, albeit with one locked out of use to avoid people falling out at Appleford.

No plans to use 769s west of Reading.  Virtually all will be confined to North Downs duties, which will release the 16 Turbos for cascade west.

Meanwhile from the Sheffield Star

Quote
Fury over plans to axe 450 workers at Doncaster rail factory
Plans to axe up to 450 jobs at a Doncaster rail maintenance factory have been blasted by a union which claimed they had been ‘smuggled out under the cloak of the Covid-19 crisis’.

Odd that ... Wabtec have a queue of work and are laying off lots of staff ...

Appropriate prompts - what's the latest on the delivery of the 769s?

GWR’s first is expected to arrive next month AIUI.

GWR’s first is expected to arrive next month AIUI.

The training ... when will it carry passengers?

This is reported to be 769943 on its way to Reading as 5Z69 but I have not found it on Realtime trains.

A 769 unit was moved South through Banbury yesterday by 50007 and 50049.

This is reported to be 769943 on its way to Reading as 5Z69 but I have not found it on Realtime trains.

Picture here on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1

Double headed! - was it that heavy?

Nuclear flask trains have 2 locos, andI've noticed that steam specials seem to have a spare diesel loco on the back too ... much of it perhaps again relating to reliability, lack of thunderbirds, and all the extra money that Network Rail will charge you if you block the line until you manage to find someone to get you out of the way.   2nd loco every time probably cheaper than risking failure - insurance if you like.

Re steam specials I thought the diesel was there to supply compressed air for the train brakes when the loco doesn't have a Westinghouse pump as well as backup. It will also be there to take the stock away if the journey finishes at a terminal station.

Double headed! - was it that heavy?